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proto language and encapsulated memories

my quest for formulating a unified proof linking genetic and epigenetic inheritance through the artifice of the roots of culture and language has been going on for many years. it has crossed me with theologists, scientists, philosophers, doctors, professors, and self-styled or self-proclaimed types of all of the above. the superstructure of this desire has been evident to me for many years, but the flesh of it, the meat and sinews, shows itself to me seductively and in a rather slapdash manner. trying to figure out a way to coalesce everything i have found is like a silhouette painting of a nude woman, or a pair of almond eyes darting away from my direct eye contact, floating above a veil. even my descriptions of the process mislead. words are the most feeble atoms to build a universe from.

i truly and wholeheartedly believe there is a communal pool of memory that has its genesis in our biological predecessors, and the depths and width of that pool is what spawned many of our universal fears, myths, and deistic tendencies. i believe that pool has been passed on, and changed over time; through genetics, through selection, and, i believe, that environmental factors have led to a far deeper exchange of that genetic data than simple Lamarckian model.

i have just come to the conclusion that there is very little difference between my belief and quest, with all it’s scattered informational trappings, and testable proofs on a micro level (but not macro) and the zealous belief of a deist’s immovable faith. the differences that do exist are significant - a pillar in my belief system is something which i strive to prove through fact, not subscribe to faith. while there are some factually blended faiths out there, the majority of them are just faiths. the other major difference is causality. what i am looking for is not greater meaning as to why we are here, or why the universe exists - those are questions i have my own answers to which lie outside the thesis i seek. there is no intercession to the past to change the present, nor any higher order to bargain, plead to, or cajole into making things go your way.

i will have to be very wary of attempts to discredit what i am working on through ad hominem and straw man attacks.

anyone out there know what i am babbling about, or, if you do know, care?

Comments

( 23 comments — Leave a comment )
dawestruck
Apr. 11th, 2006 05:14 pm (UTC)
I...uh...

Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.
delascabezas
Apr. 11th, 2006 05:19 pm (UTC)
well, at least you said so
the bigger question, i guess, is if you care - this is a really good conversation to ahve over a case of beer or, in my case, a bottle of booze.
idram
Apr. 12th, 2006 01:29 pm (UTC)
Re: well, at least you said so
I think it is best paired with some tequila and then an arm wrestle over the worm!
delascabezas
Apr. 12th, 2006 06:32 pm (UTC)
if you walk without rhythm, you won't attact the worm
i do love me some tequila though
idram
Apr. 13th, 2006 03:44 pm (UTC)
Re: if you walk without rhythm, you won't attact the worm
what a ga-rate! video! christopher walken's best work!
sohwhat
Apr. 11th, 2006 05:30 pm (UTC)
methylation?
delascabezas
Apr. 11th, 2006 05:40 pm (UTC)
bingo, sorta
but that is just part of the bigger picture. trying to find the rot of shared human experience by pointing to methylation as the solution is like trying to explain how a cimputer works by pointing to the power supply. it works on the msot pragmatic level, but there are about a billion other things you need to account for.
sohwhat
Apr. 12th, 2006 07:54 pm (UTC)
Re: bingo, sorta
yeah, i was just wondering if meth was an example of what you were getting at...

i have to say while i find your ideas and discussion fascinating, in my gut i have to hope that what you're positing is not true. otherwise i would be doomed to act out some of the very traits that i hate that oppressed, xenophobic asian people have been carrying around (and acting on) for thousands of years.

i have to hope there is an escape and a fresh start for myself.
lengjade
Apr. 11th, 2006 05:32 pm (UTC)
i truly and wholeheartedly believe there is a communal pool of memory that has its genesis in our biological predecessors, and the depths and width of that pool is what spawned many of our universal fears, myths, and deistic tendencies.

i'm with you, brother. my father is part scandinavian--hence he rowed, sailed, practiced law and married a red-headed woman. he also loves sod-roofed houses, which are scandinavian, and eats herring like its going out of style. why would he like all of these random scandinavian things if he weren't scandinavian? he wouldn't.
delascabezas
Apr. 11th, 2006 05:43 pm (UTC)
the devil is in the details
from a pure-proof perspective though, that is a very dicey posit to make. stating that there were no cultural of behavioral influences to modify your brother's upbringing, which got him to the criteria you describe is very difficult, bordering on impssoble to achieve.

i am glad that you agree, but the reasoning is far more difficult to prove than the supposition based on observation or common sense.

basically, a dual inheritance model flies in the face of occam's razor, which doesn't immidiately discredit its viability, but it starts the trek on a very steep inlcine.
lengjade
Apr. 11th, 2006 05:45 pm (UTC)
well
my dad--it was my dad, not my bro--was raised in a kosher household, so i'm guessing none of that [aside from the law] was present in his upbringing. ok, maybe the herring, too.

i didn't understand your third paragraph, but that's ok. we can talk more about this when i come home for good in 7 weeks. yay!
wangch61
Apr. 11th, 2006 07:13 pm (UTC)
so your still looking into your theory of ancestral mem.?
If only that was something we could direct......it would def speed up the whole ife process.
delascabezas
Apr. 12th, 2006 06:33 pm (UTC)
yeah, speed it up or crash it to a stop
a collective consciousness would put all the suffering people in the same tub as all the fatcat billionaires. that is a hard row to sow.
online_stalker
Apr. 11th, 2006 07:56 pm (UTC)
my cat's breath smells like cat food.
delascabezas
Apr. 12th, 2006 06:35 pm (UTC)
ralph and his infinite wisdom
And, when the doctor said I didn't have worms any more, that was the happiest day of my life.
thecurlyboy
Apr. 11th, 2006 09:16 pm (UTC)
Hmm. It makes a great deal of sense, and it's a line of thinking I've tinkered with off-and-on for years. I've not come up with anything, but I think you've put a great deal more thought and effort into than I have. Do you have a basic model or concept that you've written down somewhere? That's usually a good first place for me to start. *grin*

I'd say more, but it's 5:15, and I'm headed home.




idchild
Apr. 12th, 2006 03:59 am (UTC)
Yes.
I have been writing about it myself in the last few weeks, actually, from a perspective of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Boiling a long argument down, my statement is that either human thought, idea and memory violates the 2nd Law, by calling something new whole cloth into the universe, or, more likely, it cannot, and in fact merely accesses a universal database of sorts. Not universe wide, but rather, the collective pool of human experience can be dipped into for inspiration. Essentially, a pool of existing potential, shaped into matter by the folken pulling from it, who in turn modify the contents before returning them, where they can be later accessed and discovered anew.

I would connect the two with the idea that accessing a universal pool in a set manner over a period if time encourages genetic lines to process it in the same manner. Leading to shared proclivities.
delascabezas
Apr. 12th, 2006 06:39 pm (UTC)
neat path to the same road
but the law of thermodynamics relates to energy and matter, so far as i know, thoughts, ideas and inspirations are echoes of the realization of potential chemcial energy. thay are insubstantive, like waves on the surface of the water caused by a stone's throw. they have measureable effect and characteristics, but, ultimately, they are irrelivent when looking at the greater pool of like energy emissions.

while i do agree that the pool of potential is limited by the genetics of the preceeding generation(s), i think that potentiality is linked in a ratio to a percentage of the population which still has some shreds of that communal experience bleeding through their grey matter. the ones with more than shreds are shapers, the rest are all seeking it.
idchild
Apr. 12th, 2006 06:55 pm (UTC)
Re: neat path to the same road
I can agree with your second paragraph completely, however, I am not sure I can with your first. While I can agree that thoughts, ideas and inspirations are indeed like waves on the surface of a pool, I do not think that liberates them from the Laws. Quite the opposite, I would say that is a greater indicator of their subjugation to them. After all, what is a waveform but a means of energy transmission. Semantics aside, brain waves are a measurable, measured, and existing phenomena. And, since following chemical reactions, energy is released, in this case, perhaps by brainwaves, the thoughts themselves, or what have you, I believe that human thought cannot be above the Laws of Thermodynamics.
thecurlyboy
Apr. 12th, 2006 07:58 pm (UTC)
Re: neat path to the same road
I'm having problems understanding what you're saying -- the last sentence doesn't make much sense to me -- but I think I understand the gist of it. And while I would agree that thought, as a measureable phenomenon, will have to follow the laws of thermodynamics (electric or magnetic fields are fields, regardless of the source) in my mind, that's all after the fact. Those concepts explain the result, not the cause, from my point of view.
idchild
Apr. 12th, 2006 09:35 pm (UTC)
Re: neat path to the same road
I call "My bad" I find myself victim to obtuse sentence construction sometimes. And when the thought wasn't exactly Waterford clear to begin with, it doesn't help to much.

Breaking down into sense:

Given that a result of any chemical reaction is the release or alteration of energy, the biochemical reactions B describes can be no different. Since he described them as a sort of ripple or waves in a pool, i would color that by saying that the energy released is most likely brainwaves, a measurable form of energy, and therefor something controlled by the Laws.
thecurlyboy
Apr. 12th, 2006 11:08 pm (UTC)
Re: neat path to the same road
Okay, I can see that. And, as I said before, I agree -- soon as you get sometthing into a measurable form of energy, there's generally some laws it'll have to follow.
thecurlyboy
Apr. 12th, 2006 08:40 pm (UTC)
Re: neat path to the same road
I disagree with the second paragraph. It begins to sound too mystical, and does not make a great deal of logical sense. It also sounds as though you're stretching -- that you have a conclusion you want to reach, and are trying to find a way to justify reaching that conclusion.

It brings up a ton of questions. What is communal experience? Why does it affect your personality? How does it do so? Why does it matter whether 50 people have it or 50 million people have it, if this is only passed along genetically or epigenetically? Why would communal experience make one a shaper? If some people have zero communal experience what does that mean? Why?

I dunno. I still think the concept has merit, but blogs are probably not the best place to discuss these things ...
( 23 comments — Leave a comment )

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delascabezas
The Son of the last of a long line of thinkers.
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